Curse

Matsumi · Jul 09, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

If I had a choice between decent warrior and decent mesmer I would pick that warrior, and so would you. Lets not compare apples to oranges, because it proves nothing.

I don't know, but if I had lets say...

2 warriors
2 monks
necro
ranger
elementalist

I would take a mesmer over a warrior any day. Just because I know with the builds I use, I can eat warriors for breakfast. Then the warriors in the team can focus on other things faster, rather than beating on the same thing for 20 seconds. But that's just me, I like mesmers in a lot of situations.

tuna-fish_sushi · Jul 09, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

i dont see why being a warrior/monk is cookie cutter...

I believe cookie cutter is an exact build such as
Sever artery
gash
final thrust
sun and moon
healing hands
watch yourself
healing signet
rebirth
str 8+1
tact 10+1
sword 12+1

Wammos are an ideal choice because
1). they can help do some damage with smites
2). they relieve stress on the monk with some heals of their own

oh yea in the party above i would take an elementalist nuker over mesmer anydaymy reasoning why? is because it works

Matsumi · Jul 09, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi

oh yea in the party above i would take an elementalist nuker over mesmer anydaymy reasoning why? is because it works

So would adding gwen, because you already have a nuker in the party. Any other explanation as to why? lol

Skuld · Jul 09, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

lol tuna, real effective healing hands you got there

These arguments are kind of lopsided, "a mesmer", "a fire nuker", "a minion master", the last 2 are kind of descriptive :/

0mar · Jul 09, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Beating the missions only requires a stance tank, two echo nukers, an echo ss, two monks and two other professions to make it 8. PvE requires exactly zero thought now that we understand how to exploit the AI. The only challenge in GW PvE comes from you, IE how to make it harder yourself.

Francis Demeules · Jul 09, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

You want to make something harder? Challenge yourself with special goal with your friends like THK non-infusion, Beat shiro in duel (and menhlo), Do missions naked, no skills, etc.

TadaceAce · Jul 10, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomlord_Slayermann

Point is that he is almost impossible to take down without some caster hate, and caster hate is definitely NOT a cookie-cutter build element.

Any warrior with a clue has disrupting chop. Any ranger with a clue has distracting shot. A lot of monks and eles carry power drain/leech sig/drain enchant. A MM does a lot more damage than he heals (given he has 2 skills, faith and orison). A sin will have knockdown and/or interupts. Backfire doesn't do much because 1. It lasts 5 seconds. 2. He outheals it still. Diversion is good but still isn't as good as disrupting chop or distracting shot.

Assassins are imo, the best class to hench with. Given henchmen are completely useless beyond a few heals and a good waste of space, you want to be an ideal balance between offense and defense.... oh great I'm almost encouraging your average wammo. No.. wammo... 0 offense 3 defense. Ideally you want somethin like 2:2. My assassin hench build I give about a 4:2.

Mesmers... very versatile, very useful in pvp, pve, not so much. They have options. They can do anti war, empathy, clumsiness, whatever. They can do wastrel worry, which is just gonna be bad. They can do energy denial or caster shutdown, um not. By the time you drain the guys energy your team killed everything including him. The best option for pve imo is degen which still just doesn't cut it. Granted degen goes through the 150 armor of the lvl 28 guys but still. 1. your guy dies before you get your energy worth of degen. 2. spreading around degen is still bad damage in comparison.

TadaceAce · Jul 10, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuna-fish_sushi

i dont see why being a warrior/monk is cookie cutter...

I believe cookie cutter is an exact build such as
Sever artery
gash
final thrust
sun and moon
healing hands
watch yourself
healing signet
rebirth
str 8+1
tact 10+1
sword 12+1

Wammos are an ideal choice because
1). they can help do some damage with smites
2). they relieve stress on the monk with some heals of their own

oh yea in the party above i would take an elementalist nuker over mesmer anydaymy reasoning why? is because it works

man no..... wammos ftl

thor hammerbane · Jul 10, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

It's like taking a Warrior to Urgoz's, a wasted slot.
Assasins have there place in PvE, you just have to team up with a good one, then you might change your mind.

You might be true, but so far I have met the "cream of the crap". Wannabee tanks, wannabee pros, run in, get killed 7 times because they go infront of the 2 wars, ragequit and curse at the monks..a few times this happened.

Kook~NBK~ · Jul 10, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

In Prophecies, everyone had the same henchies most of the way through the game. And with so many people using the henchies more than PUGS, they learned to use the cookie cutter builds & also learned that Dunham isn't a very good choice for a henchie (giving us Mesmers a bad name, the bum!). So, when doing a PUG, they'd be afraid of "SOMETHING DIFFERENT!!!" Now with Factions, they've introduced several different henchies, and you can't do the cookie cutter thing with them, as you're faced with a different group of henchies at many, many towns. (it's a pain in the butt mapping around this way, but you have to make sacrifices sometimes) Hopefully, this will change the mentality of Cookie cutter PUGing.

I didn't read everyone's posts, so if I'm repeating someone, that someone has some pretty good insights into the state of the game :P

Lady Lozza · Jul 10, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

Mesmers... very versatile, very useful in pvp, pve, not so much. They have options. They can do anti war, empathy, clumsiness, whatever. They can do wastrel worry, which is just gonna be bad. They can do energy denial or caster shutdown, um not. By the time you drain the guys energy your team killed everything including him. The best option for pve imo is degen which still just doesn't cut it. Granted degen goes through the 150 armor of the lvl 28 guys but still. 1. your guy dies before you get your energy worth of degen. 2. spreading around degen is still bad damage in comparison.

LOL! Most mesmer skills are armour ignoring. So when my mesmer does clusitude, that is (on many foes) a garanteed 50% life loss and blindness. Add spirit of failure for a nice energy regen and let the team take care of the rest of his health bar, move on. Mesmers - particularly in Factions I've found - are wonderful. I didn't play anti-caster once during my little trip, though with Vizunah I went FC well spammer instead of my normal build illusion build.

I dare say, given your post, that you are a full supporter of domination only mesmers. Afterall illusion only has one elite right, migrane, that's all pvp players run so it must be the only useful one. *rolls eyes* Where is Avarre when you need her/(him?)...

No I think the problem for mesmers is that people parrot "mesmers are pvp only" all the time to the point where new players believe them. Sure it doesn't help having BAD mesmers running around, but then there are always bad wammos running around too.

To the OP, yes "cookie cutter" teams can be a pain. Especially when playing either Assassin or Mesmer, however from experience I can tell you that 80% of those teams aren't worth being in anyway. I'm not saying cookie cutter isn't good. When everyone knows what to do and does it, they really do work.

After playing a while you learn to tell the good teams from the bad. I've no problem kicking the bad people from my teams, or leaving a bad team. Afterall it is a waste of your time if you end up with a group that can't work together properly, cookie cutter or not.

Kali Magdalene · Jul 10, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus_thom

yeah I know they work well thats my point.

I wanto see more missions, quests and mobs that make players think about trying different builds/proffesions rather then the ordinary proffesions and builds that you see people more commonly asking for to join their party. I mean compare the usefullness of minion master or tank to other classes such as the mesmer or assasin in pve. If they were to make mobs that counter mm or tanks and make mesmer assasins more usefull then that might influence people to think outside the square.

Wasn't there a time when necromancers with minions were not looked upon all that favorably?

Anyway, there are enemies who counter MM. They animate minions, cast wells, or use other corpse-exploiting skills, or they use smites. Nahpui Quarter has smiting Kirin and turtles with Well of Weariness, for example. This makes life tougher for MMs in Nahpui.

Never mind the relative lack of exploitable corpses in Tyrian missions. MMs work in some Tyrian missions, but not all. Several are awkward due to a lack of exploitable corpses (undead, enchanted swords, jade armor/bow, Hell's Precipice in its entirety). The Stone Summit dwarves have necromancers with corpse-exploiting skills of their own. Those azure things have signet of judgement.

Nexus Icon · Jul 10, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Hahaha, mesmers only good for PvP?
Try this:
Fast Casting 10
Illusion 16
Inspiration 10

Ether Feast / Spirit of Failure
Energy Tap
Power Drain / Spirit of Failure
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Images of Remorse
Phantom Pain
Resurrection Chant

Swap out SoF as you see fit, but that build will see you through 99.9% of PvE situations. Especially if your weapon and focus are good enough and give good skill recharge bonuses. I use Gorrel's Cane and a 20/20 Rockmolder for this build.
It works because EVERYTHING in PvE attacks through Ineptitude, Clumsiness & Images of Remorse. Even caster monsters wand through them.

But even this isn't hard and fast and shouldn't become a "Standard". Some people have great success with pure degen builds, some prefer being anticaster and taking out the inevitable healer monster quickly. Mesmer truly is an incredibly flexible class and is just as good for PvE as it is for PvP.

Ira Blinks · Jul 10, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Hahaha, mesmers only good for PvP?
Try this:
Fast Casting 10
Illusion 16
Inspiration 10

Ether Feast / Spirit of Failure
Energy Tap
Power Drain / Spirit of Failure
Ineptitude
Clumsiness
Images of Remorse
Phantom Pain
Resurrection Chant

Swap out SoF as you see fit, but that build will see you through 99.9% of PvE situations. Especially if your weapon and focus are good enough and give good skill recharge bonuses. I use Gorrel's Cane and a 20/20 Rockmolder for this build.
It works because EVERYTHING in PvE attacks through Ineptitude, Clumsiness & Images of Remorse. Even caster monsters wand through them.

But even this isn't hard and fast and shouldn't become a "Standard". Some people have great success with pure degen builds, some prefer being anticaster and taking out the inevitable healer monster quickly. Mesmer truly is an incredibly flexible class and is just as good for PvE as it is for PvP.

no seriously... you've just nailed one guy out of 10 attacking you and sitting with your whole skillbar recharging... wow that sounds very PvE'ish.
And if you play with henchies your target will be dead before your hexes will kick in because henchies will alway follow your target.

Rent · Jul 10, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

I really want to know when cookie-cutter became synonymous with efficient.

No one ever answered, and it's a valid concern.

Ira Blinks · Jul 10, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

I really want to know when cookie-cutter became synonymous with efficient.

It is like asking why do waving trees make wind blow?
First there were efficient builds, then lots of people using them, then term cookie-cutter, not the other way around.

Nexus Icon · Jul 10, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I'm sorry Ira, but after seeing your flamebait posts in various other threads, I really don't take anything you say seriously.
I am always casting something with that build, and I'm spreading it around too, not concentrating on one target.

But hey, my Protector of Tyria title on my mesmer must have been an accident.

PS: Weirdly enough, with Ethereal Burden swapped for Res Chant and Sympathetic Visage swapped for Energy Tap, this works surprisingly well in PvP. Or maybe I just don't know what I'm doing and all of the opposition I've met are just more stupid than me.

Francis Demeules · Jul 10, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TadaceAce

Any warrior with a clue has disrupting chop. Any ranger with a clue has distracting shot. A lot of monks and eles carry power drain/leech sig/drain enchant. A MM does a lot more damage than he heals (given he has 2 skills, faith and orison). A sin will have knockdown and/or interupts. Backfire doesn't do much because 1. It lasts 5 seconds. 2. He outheals it still. Diversion is good but still isn't as good as disrupting chop or distracting shot.

1)Wrong, it last 10 seconds
2)Ether > Breeze
3)How high in Domination?Well set Diversion is really devastating or if you want a + 1 minute on your recharge on a skill instead +20 seconds

Paperfly · Jul 10, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

It is like asking why do waving trees make wind blow?
First there were efficient builds, then lots of people using them, then term cookie-cutter, not the other way around.

This is demonstrably insufficient. The demonstration in question: The Common Whammo.

I've seen some great damage warriors in GW PVE. I've seen some exceptionally competent W/Mo stance tanks in full 15K Glads. It doesn't change the fact that the single most common archetype in the entirety of serverdom is the Whammo who begins every new area by casting Mending on himself. Then lets us all know benevolently that he can help the monk out a bit, you know, if it's needed.

It's cookie-cutter, by every possible measurement.

It's also lousy.

Popular opinion about PVE is not an idealised form of darwinian capitalism that unerringly produces the most efficient builds.

Surkon · Jul 10, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Hi All,

I am New here and still learning about the game. I have learned a lot reading in here and I thought I would add my 2 cents worth I have been tring a PvE char of Rt/N and the only 2 Necro are Blood of the Master and Animated Bone Fiend and I would like the comments from you all on this type of build. I can walk through a lot of missions on Factions with 6 to 10 minions around me and henchies and complete the missions.

Please reply on this build and tell me what you think.

Thanks

Surkon